Web3 is uniquely positioned for this technology because it provides personalized experiences and a more decentralized data ecosystem. - We think that the web tree scope is to separate the technology of crypto from the financialization aspect of it and to use it across some other things, like how we organize ourselves as groups. We hope the bear market doesn't last too long because more and more people are being drained from Web3. Blockchain technology can create a universal, decentralized single sign-on that is a blockchain-powered application. This would help to solve issues with centralized control of content and censorship.
Follow Dee on Twitter (@dthinksweb3)
Follow Paulo on Twitter (@paulofonseca__)
Send in a voice message
Apple announced a new design paradigm, Vision Pro, designed for virtual and augmented reality. They also said eye tracking data does not leave the device, and applications only know clicks and touches. Paulo and I have different thoughts on this paradigm. - In general, we need to focus more on selling the vision of what this technology unlocks instead of focusing on the technology itself. Apple has done a great job doing this, and I think we could learn a lot from them. Meta's AirPods have advanced cameras and sensors that work together to verify your identity, and the battery pack is separate so that it is continuously charged.
They have MicroLED displays on the outside that make the experience very noticeable. The AirPods have short battery life but are now available for $199. Web3 and crypto will not be stopped by regular powers at B. The key things about crypto and Web3 are still valid, and the market is still up and down and super volatile. I think the fundamental difference between tokens and other parts of our technology will result in a rebranding of crypto like there's crypto, and then there's Web3. - - FaceTime does not currently use your natural eyes but can do so through facial recognition or AI. - FaceTime has had a facial recognition feature for a while and is looking to continue to improve it. - iPhone users will need to use FaceTime with their natural face to use many features, such as determining when they're looking at the screen.
Transcript
Dee 0:00
Welcome, welcome. Welcome to an episode of designer Tao where we talked about web three, and design.
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of designer Tao with my favorite host bolo.
today and we are going to be talking about the vision Pro that just came, like, just got released like last week, wasn't it?
And our thoughts on it, what what it means for web three and all that jazz.
Paulo? I know you've been super psyched on it. And what's your kind of first thoughts on the vision Pro? Oh, hello. Yeah.
Paulo 0:46
I mean, it took me it took me like two days to recover from the presentation to be honest.
Because
I mean, the whole thing is amazing. Either way, you look at it. And you know that if Apple launches, something like that, then an alpha or something like that there's going to be, it's going to be pretty good
for for them to analysing the way they did, and all the things that they did around it. And the reactions of everybody that tried it, or just like, speechless for most of them, especially for the high tracking, tapping your fingers, the quick kind of thing,
1:29
Introduction to navigate apps and so on.
1:37
But yeah, it took me a couple days to recover from that, because I was like, Okay, how can I, as an independent, designer, creator, etc, build something that competes with this? I can't, it's like, only Apple could do this. And not even Google and Facebook and Amazon and all the others can compete with this kind of shit. Because it's so it's so well made. It's so completed. So good, really?
2:06
So yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be awesome.
2:13
I'm dying tribes. Yeah.
2:16
To fly.
2:19
Because it's hard, because I think the video reviews I've seen, like, it's a 3d experience. So how do you record that you can't, like only you can see the thing. So it's like, so you can only like rely on the demo videos. So it's definitely something that's like hard to quantify, experience, I really want to go over like the key differences. And like, approaches versus what we've seen on the market, I think one of one of which is the eye tracking. So a lot of other VR sets still rely on controllers,
2:56
for you to select and stuff, which kind of I feel like takes you out of the experience in a way because like, you're still like, you know, tangible to the real world. And Apple made a conscious decision to really make a you the tool versus adding extra hardware. And I think that decision was definitely a design decision. Because they this is like, literally, I see this as the first building block to, you know, what, what we will come to know as like
3:33
a sort of matrix or, you know, 4d experience. And I think that decision was was made because they want to build upon that and get user feedback, and really be pioneers on how to track how people interact with the software versus the hardware. So I guess I say all that to say like, in order for you to create a device that relies on human behavior, you need a lot of data on human behavior. And it's very clear that Apple did a lot of testing to get to this point. But I think the decision to not use a controller
4:13
puts them further ahead in terms of having pure user data and feedback on how people interact with digital experiences, which will then like, they're just going to be ahead because of that decision. And I can definitely see them patenting and being like, the sole source of like that information for other devices in the future.
4:42
And
4:43
one of the things when I was watching the presentation that I was curious about which is I was curious and afraid at the same time because
4:53
if he does eye tracking, and if it basically follows your eye movements and knows where what you're looking at
5:00
and
5:01
highlights as part of the interface for you
5:06
that data about what you're looking at. It's a very first of all, it's very private data. Yeah, it's very, it's very rich data. And there was a guy that was working on Apple A while ago. And it was experimented with these kind of things. And he was in the the Twitter thread where he explained that just from the eye movements, they could infer what people were thinking about. It's any any call that this kind of low level, mind reading technology, to be able to track your eyes. And so while I was watching the presentation, I was like, okay, but please tell me that the data from your eye movements does not leave the device. And it's not shareable with anyone. And they actually said that they actually said that the as privacy protection, the eye tracking eye tracking data, does not leave the device. And
6:02
it's not accessible by applications. So applications only know
6:07
the clicks, like when people tap things, which from a user point of view is awesome, right? So my, but I still see Apple to creating like a sort of
6:17
aggregated, like general report on like, you know, eye tracking, and like app performance. I think developers need stuff like that in order to make, but they can't actually
6:29
know what they announced they can't because it doesn't leave device, it's gonna be computed in separate things. And the device will not even Apple knows it. And actually said, not even we know it. So.
6:40
So let's question which is good and what and that's actually what makes me think about if Facebook was doing it, they probably wouldn't
6:52
sell you out every single time. I don't really want to talk about and in terms of my thoughts, is that I immediately thought that, okay, the choice. So the one choice, I haven't completely eye movement, that was another choice and the UX. Another choice they made versus the meta Pro is they they chose to invest heavily in the hardware, and we're okay with the higher price point. And I think
7:24
I think that was the right move. I think the reason why Mehta is failing at VR is because they're overly betting on a wide audience caring about VR. And I think Apple,
7:38
like, we're just not there yet. Like, if you think about it, and Apple has been a pioneer in so many other devices, they prior to the iPhone, they have so much more experience on bringing new technology to market.
7:52
And I think they kind of knew, like, why would we make a consumer friendly version of this? You know, because as we know, consumers aren't, they're not there. They're gonna get the iPhone, you know, after the foreign buyer. Like, that's just how it works like people who are first to new technology. They want premium over everything. Yeah.
8:18
And that's why it's called the throw as well. Yeah, yeah. And I think, like meta like,
8:24
you know, really trying to cater VR to for every day, I think that was a misstep on their part. Because and also, this speaks to like design philosophy, like often other designers, we create the best case scenario, we create the, you know, the stretch goal, we go out to come back in, I think that's what Apple kind of does, they go out to come back in. And because Mehta has chosen to limit themselves, price point wise, they don't know the fourth possibility of this technology. But the problem, I think that the problem is bigger than that, and we need to talk about it, because it has to do with business models. So
9:05
meta needs to have a sheep device actually, so So sheep, that they would even eventually in extreme, give it give it away for free to people so that they can serve people ads in a device, right? So that's, that's matters business model. Their business model is serving ads. And so if more people have more devices through which they can serve ads,
9:27
that makes sense. So it means that the device needs to be cheap, is to be broadly available and distributed and so on. Apple doesn't care about that Apple cares about mixes makes their money by selling hardware. And so, of course, they need to have high profit margins in the hardware. And of course, they have to go for premium because there's more margin. That's right. Yeah, I think I think he goes down to the to the business model even because
9:52
Mr. Zuckerberg definitely wants a lot of people and I mean, by the way, after the apple vision pronouncement, Zuckerberg
10:00
He said some things. And basically, the gist of what he said was,
10:06
we're selling millions of devices, we will continue to sell millions of devices and
10:12
kind of like making them look like the Android version of, of your answers. And that was make sense with them because they need that because they need to have more eyeballs make more money.
10:27
Which is, which is honestly the
10:31
fastest way to make this whole VR thing dystopic to be under threat.
10:36
Because if you as a user, if you put an ad set on,
10:40
and in their case, specifically, and you also have to use the controllers,
10:47
and you are bound by what is being served into your eyeballs. Yeah, I mean, that's, that sounds really cool, right? And the way Apple did it, where the user has full control of what they're seeing the users cool, like, fine tune control, the level of immersion that they're in, right with a, with a crown thing, and they rotate to give more immersion and less immersion.
11:14
Almost as if it was like a volume knob, right, which it is on the airport's max. And so it is so tough we design in a way that empowers the user, the Apple device, that
11:28
yeah, it's something that metal could never do. And when I say never do is, I mean, like, from the business model point of view, they will have to change the business, they will have to become a hardware play.
11:39
And that's not what they're in for. Right. So.
11:43
I mean, it's, it's,
11:46
it's really a while to see, I mean,
11:49
I got I got the vibes,
11:54
the Steve Ballmer vibes from from the cupboard,
11:58
that when the iPhone came out, they were like, Oh, they're so expensive, nobody was going to buy it. I actually, definitely, like repeating history, I've definitely
12:08
this is Zach with that. And I think that
12:12
I mean, if you as a user, if you
12:18
if you want a good VR headset,
12:21
you're going to compare it to a bunch of other hardware that you have like your TV or sounds in your computer, your display, your desktop, your wearables, whatever. And you're gonna, I mean, it's not something that you want it to be shipped to be honest, I think
12:38
I even think that the current price,
12:42
I'm not sure but I would even say that Apple
12:46
is going to sell that at that price point. And it's not going to make any money. Maybe because he looks cheap for what it is like it has a lot of custom technology. Let's talk about it because I think I'm wondering, like many overview for our listeners, so like, um, the cameras and sensors like so it has advanced cameras and sensors that work together so basically cameras on the outside of it and that basically allows you to verify your identity before you use it. And also
13:20
which is like not something that we've seen in device another thing that it does is like the battery pack is separate. So a lot of other headsets have been included they've they've purposely allowed it to be separate because I think that was definitely a design choice there are two because
13:40
I think they're
13:43
already pretty heavy first of all because it's made out of like solid materials like it's made out of glass and metal and I think to
13:53
the battery life is really short because it's so advanced and instead of having to carry that battery on your head on top of all that metal having in your back pocket was definitely a choice. I think a lot of people are complaining about the battery life and I honestly I'm surprised that even have the battery life has worked for what all it's giving you
14:13
in a small power bank actually but the good thing about it being external is that you can either plug it in
14:22
you know to the wall outlet or something it is continuous or ever bigger power bank if you want
14:29
obviously through the market and you can see it's a very live room apps like like basically places where you'll most likely have battery access. They kind of hinted at it for a plane but if you're going on a long plane ride obviously it's gonna die before then you can plug it in on the seat chargers and
14:49
they're gonna sell you extra battery packs for this.
14:54
Another thing is they have basically micro l o LED display
15:00
is and
15:03
I mean for the folios? Yeah, yeah, for the eyes, and it's like similar to 4k tv.
15:10
That's what the for the internal ones. Yeah, I mean, it's the special that's for each eye. So imagine how like, they like that's why it's expensive.
15:21
It should be more expensive to
15:24
the,
15:25
for people that that have tried VR, it is very noticeable that if you're looking in a VR headset that doesn't have enough resolution, you can see the pixels and that basically destroys the illusion that
15:39
it takes you out of it. So same thing for sound, to be honest. But
15:44
it is both the refresh rate and both the pixel density is very telling that you're not in a real experience, right? I'm very curious about how it handles sound.
15:57
Because I've done, I've done like, I don't know, seven years, eight years ago, I then experiment with, with some friends, where we basically did we act together an Oculus Rift at a time. And we put cameras on the outside, and basically, we're feeding the image from the outside to the inside, right. So basically, video pastoral, but what we're doing is like, we were simulating drugless nations visual distinction. So you'd see the real world but maybe distorted or different colors saturated, whatever. And we were doing that to experiment with some things and even to maybe try to do some, you know, treatment protocol for addiction and so on.
16:42
So the idea would be that people would be that would be addicted to drugs would wear the VR headset and have the high of the visual hallucinations, but without the.
16:54
And when we're doing that, we're like, okay, how do we do this with sound? So sound is was like, we tried it without sound? And it's just sounded, it just felt weird? Because it was not completed at all. Yeah, disjointed. Yeah, I think the last piece of technology I want to talk about is the choice for you to be able to see the user's eyes on the outside, which is not something we've seen in any VR headset. And I think it's because it's mostly controlled through the eye, and I think they want, I think it'd be weird for you, they want other people who are interacting with you if you had an asset to like, have a point of reference from what you're looking at.
17:31
Um, is there any other reason you think they didn't chose to do that?
17:37
For real, it's not goggles, like, it's a camera that scans your face, and then displays them on the outside? It's very sophisticated, how it's like, replicating your face? I think, yeah, I think this is through litigation that was needed for FaceTime. So you have an ad set. And you want to be portrayed on FaceTime with your real face without your like, without the camera without an external camera filming, right? They would have to do an avatar of you, and have it mimic your facial expressions and so on. And meta actually pioneered that. But in a bit of a, you know, cartoonish,
18:10
comical way, like your avatar would change, basically. So they didn't went for the hyper realistic avatar. And Apple did it. And I even if they didn't have the external display, showing the the eyes, they would have to do it because they need to demo FaceTime, right?
18:30
Yeah, otherwise, you would you would show up and FaceTime with what your emoji or something that's.
18:37
So they had to do it for FaceTime. And I guess they were like, oh, since we have a live feed of the user's facial expression, maybe we can also show it to the people around them, and put a display that shows it. So I think that was the order of operations, to be honest, because it is much more important to have a digital avatar free to be represented on video calls nowadays, right? Because everybody is on the call today. And, and I actually think that's the thing that's gonna, that's actually the most technologically challenging thing that they did. Because
19:10
you know, if you think about it, the infrared cameras that take the eye movement can, you know, see what your eyes are looking at? It's okay. But have you seen it do facial expressions? Yeah. Have you seen
19:25
from your face ID it has to be or something like that.
19:30
That's what it is. People have to do an initial scan of their face. So they create a 3d model of your face and so on. But still, aren't you animate your face your 3d model of your face right? With the right facial expression in the right moment of a call, right? Because I figured that's going to be a really awkward when you are in the FaceTime call. And your avatar is smiling because that's your default expression. And someone says something really sad, where you shouldn't be smiling and they're still smiling. Right? That's under
20:00
To test like, how do they, you know, there has to be some sort of AI bridging the gaps essentially, with like your face movements and stuff. And I wouldn't be surprised if you if your iPhone user, if they're using some of the face ID information on top of this the way they are already, because since my iPhone 11, I think when you do a FaceTime call, the the video of your eyes actually is superimposed with
20:30
this article about that. And I was like, which is weird I'm because basically, they're replacing our eyes so that you're not looking at the screen, you're looking at the camera, so you're looking straight to the person's eyes. So you can make eye contact. So if you try to do a FaceTime call, with someone that has latest iPhones or something, it looks like you're looking through this person's eyes. But you're not you're actually looking at the screen and the camera on top of screen.
20:57
Exactly. So they're doing that for like three or four years. Yes, they did that. Also, while they're doing that, right? They're also learning. Okay, how do we replace the user's representation of their eyes, so that they're gazing to the right spot, and not the nothing screen. So that's definitely where AI comes into play. Because any other I've seen some other products that are more advanced than this, but it requires so much work on the user's part, like you have to go to a studio, get your body scanned, and it's like a whole thing. And so, you know, from a reg that no one wants to have to do all that in order to access to technology, and there's gonna have to be more and more ways to fill in those gaps. And I think I wouldn't be surprised if like, Apple developed some sort of like face scanning app or face where you like, basically record a bunch of expressions, and it like, basically uses as as your No, I don't know, I don't know. So right now, for VisionPRO. They have an onboarding process, where you have to scan your face. And I don't know, how long does it take? How many exhibitions are you doing? That's onboarding thing. But in the same way that for Siri, and for it, to recognize your voice, you have to make
22:15
a bunch of sentences exactly. I guess you would also have to do a bunch of expressions on the onboarding process so that it maps correctly, your full scope of your facial expression as a person? Yeah, I would, I wouldn't be surprised if it like, learns more. I think that definitely they are they have to be using some sort of AI to empower this. And hopefully, I think this is the key, I think this is where web three, the tie back into the Word Web, he misses the mark. Apple is selling you a vision, it's selling you a dream, it's selling you use cases, the technology behind it is secondary.
22:54
or secondary, they're selling you a dream. And I like through this discussion, you know, you know, the technology focus people like ourselves, we can sort of infer, okay, they have to be using this to do this, they have to be using that to do that. But on the consumers in and in the marketing. That's not the focus, the focus is the vision, the dream that is this device. And I think I've seen a lot of conversations and web three about like, we need to get more focused on on benefits and value adds. And I think like this is a prime example when it comes to frontier technology. You don't sell them the technology, you sell them the vision.
23:33
And we could do a lot more. And I've been doing that in the role that I've been in. But I think collectively, we could do a lot more work on on doing that more and selling the vision of what this unlocks versus selling the actual technology. And I think a lot of times in web three, we we kind of muddle what is consumer. I'm messaging and what is developer messaging, right.
24:00
Yeah, a lot of times we do both in one page and think, well, that that was a misstep. You know, as a community. I think we should have been more like tailored in our in our messaging and our marketing of this technology. That's that's definitely the issue. I mean, it is kind of a tradition in the military to be builder focus and Developer Focus and blah, blah, right? So it is
24:29
a quirk or a feature of for all the bull markets, you really didn't have to worry about actual metrics that matter like
24:44
making money and throwing parties away.
24:47
And so
24:49
I mean, the messaging didn't even matter, but, but I think it is kind of a legacy issue that we haven't there were three which is it looks like the main
25:00
In Persona, the main user is the builder, developer and whatever. And so we will never reach mass market with that messaging for sure. Right.
25:10
And I mean, for example, Coinbase does a bit of that messaging to be honest with those, you know, let's update the system kind of ads and stuff like that, because they are clearly targeting mass market, obviously. Right? We do. And which now puts them in trouble with the SEC and all that, but
25:29
but they they've done a bit of a bit of that, but it's,
25:34
but I think it's the only thing. I mean, centralized exchanges have been the only kind of thing in crypto that actually
25:43
actually forced to market to real users, because that's what they need.
5:47
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think I got to be on a whole tangent on this. So but I know to focus on the topic at hand, in my last thing
25:59
that they just
26:03
someone someone was speaking
26:10
sorry, my freaking, YouTube is unpause itself. And
26:17
I can go on and on about that. But long, long story short, I believe that yes, because of the,
26:24
you know, the Krypto, Hive 2017, there was little incentive to opt optimize UX. And so, like, people were like, it's working, why not, you know, keep doing it, and then the bear market hit. And then, you know, we saw a lot of places struggle. And I think, in general, though, and this is a conversation that's happening in a lot of different places, we're experiencing a lot of churn, meaning like we have reached like, everybody who's in the crypto or was gonna be into it has already on boarded. And so many apps are struggling with onboarding past their niche audiences think they're struggling with that, because they fundamentally built their products for the niche and not for the masses. And now they're forced to pivot. And I think going back to this greater conversation, and using Apple as an example, I think we we as product builders should, should be visionaries, and stop succumbing to the short term gratification and short term building. I think I see a lot of short term building, I see a lot of myopic views on on product, and there's a lack of vision. And we an Apple has shown us that it does pay off to have a vision and have a strong point of view out of the gate, and kind of have a little bit of forethought, instead of building. You know, Apple didn't build faster horses, essentially.
27:56
They built
27:58
the we also have to take in mind that Apple is in in a crazy position, right? Something trillion dollar Yeah, trillion dollar company as all the money all the access all the technology in the world. I mean, it's all the talent, so
28:15
they can do this stuff. But the reason is also, well, Google as as well, Amazon as as well as Facebook as well. Right? So why don't they do it? Right. So we should compare Apple with their peers, and not so much with with, you know, upstart,
28:35
you know, young startups and so on. I regarding what you said about certain web companies focusing on the nation, then to the detriment of the mass markets, and then figuring out oh, we have no users. I think that the worst part of that is that when you figure out that you have to change your product to serve the mass market, then you realize, Oh,
29:00
yeah.
29:01
But that's okay. I mean, because we design it, the problem is that we're going to lose the power users that we already have, because we're going to change the product. They're not they will not like the changes, right? Yeah, that's the that's a struggle that a lot of,
29:18
you know, niche web three startups, products have to face because especially in crypto, the difference between the power user and the, you know, the person that just learned about crypto today, or what that difference is astronomical, like so big is enormous. And so you cannot do a product that serves all of them properly, that they're willing to pay for, right? So
29:43
you have to choose who you're serving very carefully. And sometimes you choose one of these. It's very niche and very powerful user and maybe there'll be for that, but you realize there are only like 50 people in the world.
29:57
And so it is really an
30:00
If you want
30:01
to go mainstream and you want to do a product to onboard the masses, you're going to have to need a lot of money to endure the months and months of just offering a service for free or product for free to onboard all these people so that eventually you monetize. So we're caught in this in this place where
30:21
you're in between the sword and the wall, basically. Yeah, it's a tough place to be, I think, I think nine to 10 The answers to products as much as people hate to have to redo work. Um, yeah, but, but that's exactly what,
30:40
again, going back to exchanges. There's Coinbase, pro and Coinbase, not pro, there's Pro and Kraken Pro, and so on, so forth, right. So that's the reason, right? Because a niche, Power User trader needs completely different things than mass market, right? It's easier to build for those separate audiences into two separate products than it is to like mesh it all into one. Yeah.
31:04
Because then you just have, like a completed user experience, and then I know how to use this damn thing anymore. It doesn't help the masses, and it doesn't help the Pro users. And it's just like a Frankenstein product.
Paulo 31:18
Which is, which is the worst of both worlds. The worst of both worlds. I think I'm going back to like VR technology. I think my immediate thought non battery related is like this device could effectively like kill theaters. And more and more like studios, like create, you know, 3d or like vision Pro versions of their movies to be more immersive. On the web three front, we I've seen a lot of NF T gallery experiences and like attempts at making NF T's more than just a JPEG. And I think what what apples and you know, quest device allows you to primarily Apple because Apple is building for applications versus quest, haven't in other guises haven't built for that they built for gaming and some other use cases.
32:16
I think it definitely like allows for a lot more utility. In the digital experience space. I think this is potentially good news for NFT creators and artists alike. And developers who work with them.
32:34
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I
32:40
again, I might be I might be releasing the Kraken, here we go. One of the things that I immediately thought about is saw in the presentation when they did the demo of Disney, that the point, the user is wearing the goggles, and they extend their arm in like a bracelet gets into their arm, right.
33:00
And I immediately thought that, okay, that bracelets could be an app.
33:05
And you could have actually the representation of the NFT being customized to your unique thing, right. And I think that
33:16
pulling back to your comment earlier of replacing replacing theaters, I think the big difference is, if you're if you're going to the theater, and the room as 200 people, 200 seats or whatever, all those other people are watching the same thing, right, they're looking at the same screen watching the exact same thing. I think we're going storytelling is going to change when people realize that, oh, wait, now we have 200 people in the room, maybe or not. And they're all wearing their own screens, which means that the storytelling should be customized for each one of them individually. Which means that the name of the character of the main character is your name or something like that. And so if everybody is on screen, and storytelling can be customized like that, they'll be they'll be really crazy, right? Because everybody will have their own unique experience, and everybody will have their own
34:11
role to play on that storytelling, right? And I think Disney was hinting at that with that initial demo that he did and so on. But But I think it's it's going to be really quite something when you're going to be able to put your on your headset, and you're going to you know, watch a football game and you're going to be part of one of the players in the pitch and you've got to be able to move around this if you're in the middle of the you know
34:37
that's crazy. And everybody would experience the game like that right? So
34:42
it's, it's gonna be quite something when that always becomes super personalized. If if everybody has
34:50
a screen in their eyes, it can be super personalized and and which means that storytelling and content creation will need to be
34:59
done.
35:00
parametric like, instead of just designing or telling one story, you will tell the story with parameters where like, this is the person's name, and this is
35:10
gonna be definitely primed for creating and like leading this this rock because they already did that to an extent.
35:19
Do you do you think web three, in particular is uniquely positioned for this technology versus other industries? I think I think personally, web three and gaming are.
35:34
But I think so because if everything again, it's from this perspective of personalization, because if everything is going to be personalized, where is going to be the data that represents yourself, and apps and other external content can use to personalize your experience for you, right? The answer, the web three answer is gonna be in your world. So you'll be able to connect your world and you have there your anesthesia in your name, and your domains and whatever you want. And that's going to be the content that people will use to customize their, their experiences from that, right. So I think the place where that information is needs to be user owned, decentralized, and it's controlled by one single organization, which means that it will not live on my Apple ID it should live on my wallet, right? Yeah. And
36:28
I think that's the main the main use case for absolutely under strike. People horrible data,
36:35
when people start to look at their wallet says, like, this is my identity, this represents me, and I'm going to curate what's in here. And I'm going to make it be a good representation of myself, at least there are 12, let's say, up there, you know, what? Their main water their for their money, because, you know, your identity is not just your account balance. I mean, for most people at least. But
Paulo 36:58
if you can make your world your identity, and if their identity is on the blockchain, and if it is readable by wherever you give access to and blah, blah, blah, you know, yeah. So that's, that will be the goal. I don't think it can be owned by a single Corporation, because then there'll be no cross platform compatibility at all right? So if it is just my Apple account to the won't be possible to be accessible by Apple apps? Not surely the problem right now. Like, that's the problem with single sign on right now. Because I have a I have an apple single sign on, I have a Google seen, like, it's just so fragmented and hard to keep up.
37:35
And there's going to need to be a universal solution for for your data. And I think I've yet to see a product position blockchain technology in this way. And I think I think maybe the only thing I can think of is potentially maybe magic wallet because they you know, they they integrate with single sign on. But
37:57
it maybe disco because discos value prop is like your Digital Backpack? Yeah, that's probably a really this is a b2b product like that, you know, if you really think about it like, and we're gonna need an entire entire industry to get on board with the idea of a universal Single Sign On that is blockchain powered.
38:21
And that's an application scan. Well, first of all, that users can choose their own app, their wallet app, through which they,
38:30
you know, use to manage their identity Walton, right. So that's the first thing that's already happening, right. So you can use meta mask is rainbow, you can use whatever. But also, applications and front ends need to be able to allow people to log in with any of those rights. And so which already kind of happens, right, you can log into mathematics. And I think it's, it's,
38:53
it's really key that we get this kind of
38:59
practices where I have on my wallet, and NFT, which is a badge that gives me access to stuff and then some community in somewhere, some place a map wherever, and I can do stuff with that I can trade it, I can do whatever I want to that. And I have control over that. And nobody can take that away from my wallet, right? If we, if we bring it back to the main
39:23
you know, to the main quality of blockchain is that it is incorruptible and uncensor room. And so if you have something in your wallet, you actually do have it right. Nobody can take it away from you. Nobody can censor it. Nobody can change it. I really want that for digital products. Like I think another thing, maybe unrelated that I have personally seen gripes about is like, how will you purchase digital content because it's centralized? They can decide to remove that content, they can decide to change that content. And like the only way to have a pure version of it is to buy the disc which feels so archaic at this point.
40:00
That's really the only way. And I would love like, I mean, one example is like, Beyonce album had like, like, I like to Lisa's interflow and one of her songs and that she removed it on streaming. But like some people want their original version of the song, but because it's streaming control your unless you bought the you know the discs and when it first first came out, you will never gonna have that. So I think it's gonna take a while for the public to see the value in having like blockchain like ownership, digital assets, and what that cannot be controlled. But there's a handful of use cases, I think a lot of because of the writer strike and things like that a lot of places are taking off shows that have high Rolo to use in order to like avoid paying the actors and people who made it.
40:53
And us as end users are like, Well, shit, I wanted that like what the hell, and you the only way to get it is to buy a disc of the series like, it's, it's funny because this is an example of how capitalism is at odds with technology. Like because from a publisher standpoint,
41:13
it behooves me to have that centralized control right over the content as a publisher as a universal as Apple. But as a user, I would prefer to be able to own and purchase the content that these publishers like put out. And those two, that's a difference between business needs and user needs.
41:36
Unless we create a demand for these types of things, like these publishers are not going to,
41:44
to allow that content to be owned and purchased on the blockchain.
41:51
The problem of web three in general, like a lot of the things that our technology unlocks is are exactly at odds with like capitalistic structures that we have, you know, yeah, right. For now. Yeah.
42:02
In the same in the same way that the one of the biggest abs for for Bitcoin and crypto was the truckers strike in Canada, where their transactions were blocked. And people were like, What? Are you seeing my bank accounts? What what what do you mean, and then decided to use Bitcoin to donate money to the truckers? I mean, I think those kinds of events,
42:27
kind of kickstart
42:30
an awareness and the general public that oh, wait, maybe there's something else that could solve this.
42:37
And when it deals when it deals with people's money that's very sensitive, and people will probably do something about it. When it deals with people with people's content or ability to consume content, maybe not so much. But if there is some piece of content that's very juicy, and people want to watch, and it's available in most mainstream
42:58
platforms, but it is available in one platform that is a decentralized web form and asks you to connect with your world. People will create a world just to access that piece of content or that juicy content that's not available anywhere. So
43:14
prime for this comedian's. Obviously, I'm a
43:19
huge fan of comedy. And I follow a lot of comedians, and I've noticed a lot of comedians are, are tired of decentralization and censorship. And so a lot of them are selling their own content on their own websites. And I really, like if I had all the money and time in the world, I really want to build a Patreon, like slash, like hybrid, like experience for content creators to be able to sell, like, digitized content on the blockchain, like easily, and, you know, have memberships and all that of the light. Because I think right now, the state of creator monetization is kind of like the user experiences aren't great. And it lacks personalization. Like, for instance, most people use Patreon. But Patreon forces you in the same template, no matter what the nature of your content is, which makes it like terrible to navigate. And also the things that they allow you to offer
44:19
is down and also they take a cut off the off the top, you know, it's like it's like a lot of, like problems and I think,
44:27
I think I'm
44:30
like, I think the core of what you're saying is like, yeah, like, we should be in tuned with the world as an industry and like, serve up the solutions in a timely manner, just like the, you know, the the trucker prices like, what are other practices that are happening that we could like that, you know, whether the products and services can respond to, with like, our technology is going to help you in this moment, you know, like when they take you know, content off of HBO max or something. Could we market to those people on
45:00
Be like, here's our platform that serves content and allows you to own you know, like, speak to people and I think in a more timely manner, then then like being siloed off like we are as industry right now, I think that's another problem is like we're, we're like to in our own corners, optimizing for our own niches, instead of like being receptive to like what's happening.
45:23
And that's, and that's mainly because of technical constraints, right? Because you still have to force people to write down to LC words.
45:34
With things like with things like a context for obstruction, and smart accounts, and so on,
45:40
probably coming maybe
45:46
that will, that will become easier. And in the transition between the web two world and virtual world for most people will be painless. And, and I think that's,
Paulo 46:01
that's one of those unlocks that we need. And right now, the current abstraction has been all over the place well, at least in crypto Twitter, in the that's good, although, there's still a challenge going there, which is the technology already exists for like four years or something. But he has never became mainstream. And he has never
46:25
fully realized itself, right. But now he's getting pushed a little bit more into the, into the mainstream narrative. And maybe more builders and more creators and more developers will start picking up on that and start to imagine, better use cases with
46:40
account obstruction that they can maybe potentially serve more people, and specifically the mass market, right. And if that starts to happen,
46:50
I think we're in a good path. And I think that's, that's, that's one of the ways for us to get out of this rut of like, Oh, we're only we're only a couple of users in this space. And we're all building for each other. And we're all in the same silo. And we need to break out of that and start to design and create for mass market. Yeah, I think I think you're right. It's it's combination of the technology is not there yet, in a lot of cases and technology, and the combination of us not
47:22
having great marketing in general. I think places like serotonin and some other places are talking about how to better marketing in the space.
47:31
I guess my last thought, before we close this out is
47:38
given the market, where do you see web three, unlike the next one to three?
47:47
The next
47:49
three?
Paulo 47:51
Are you asking me how bullish or bearish Am I on this base? Yeah, I mean, the terms of like, number go up, but in terms of like, you know, like this space, you know, the space itself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think we,
48:07
I've been seeing a bunch of people
48:10
losing faith in the space, which I think it's totally understandable. And I don't judge them too much about that. But
48:21
I mean, to me, the fundamental things about crypto, and web three, as this latest chapter of quip, let's say, are still true, you know, people still need a way to transact value in whatever in whatever they see fit, and that they fully control and bah, bah, bah. So all that is still true.
48:46
I think it's becoming more and more parents that
48:49
crypto when webserie cannot be stopped by
48:54
regular powers that be and even though they try to litigate and regulate and all that. I mean, it will always come down to the question of like, oh, so do you want to stop the internet then? Because? Because there's no way there's no way you can forbid people to use this kind of technologies. And so,
49:16
you know, I think I think this battle is going to be it's going to be much bigger in the future when we're dealing about
49:23
things like immigration and, and your right to browse the web without being tracked and so on. And
49:34
I mean, I see no
49:37
possibility that that can be stopped. So it's not a question of, if it's going to happen, like the web trick with a revolution. I believe it's going to happen. It's just a matter of when and maybe it will be delayed with more
49:52
decoupling
49:55
technology, crypto assets, and I think
Dee 50:00
I think that this is the reason why I think the market is always up and down super volatile. You know, and I think there is a fundamental difference between tokenomics tokens, those sorts of things and the other parts of our technology. And I think right now, since we're all talking about, you know, value and benefits and marketing, I think that is going to result in a rebranding of crypto as like, there's crypto and then there's what three. And I think that I'm starting to see more and more projects
50:41
lead with the web three, and not the crypto aspect. Like, you know, I think I recently saw linstor just got a huge, like, you know, influx of cash, I think, and I think people on the outside looking in, like, you know, the VCs and the people who have money, they see the real value in the technology, and what it unlocks, like the some of the use cases that we've been talking about, and they're less interested in the the other part of the defi, and the financial technology. Like, I think, as we are starting to progress, like this is the frickin future, like the Apple vision Pro is the beginning of what we envision the future to be in our lifetime. And I think there's going to be things that these big companies are going to run into, that are gonna be like, you know, what, we should use blockchain technology, because this would make this a lot easier.
51:38
Yeah, for now, you know, just from a technological standpoint, and I think that's the first thing
51:44
is like, web three, technology is going to be more mainstream, and you at the end user won't know it. It'll be people like you and me abstracting all that away. And, and web three being more about the use cases. Yeah, exactly. And in crypto will live in its own silo, I believe.
Paulo 52:14
Correct. People, people will notice when they will be able to change apps without losing their content and their data, for example, right? People will notice when they don't need to do 50 different logins to log in 50 different things, and they just need, you know, their, their wallet and their face ID wherever attach that. So they almost want those small things. And, and also on the unsensible part, like the the cons cannot be deleted and so on.
Which is totally fine. Okay. I also think there's another force that is pushing people to the non financialization, part of crypto or web three, which is the legal constraint, right? Because VCs, VCs are not realizing that oh, wait, we invested and whatever. And maybe they're securities, maybe we're going to jail.
We either we either move our offices in the UK, or we, we don't, we just, we just don't do that. Right. So there's also that part of the issue. And
53:16
I mean,
53:18
there are I think that the approach is going to win in there is
53:24
something like maybe what's happening with,
53:28
with maker and some other stable or pseudo stable coins like that. And that's where I think really crazy, impressive, amazing technology has been built to create crypto assets that are actually useful, instead of just being speculative, and people can, you know, make them go up and get rich, right. But they actually have utility because they're either actually stable, or whatever it is, or resilient, or whatever it is. And
53:58
I think it's going to be where most of the action is going to be. But I agree with you that
54:05
in the large scheme of things, the web three scope is to actually separate the technology of crypto from the financialization aspect of it, and to use it across some other things. Right. And one of the main things is, you know, how we organize ourselves as subgroups and we do dowels or, or something that that comes from the US or whatever, how do we
54:30
express our own creativity with an SDS? You know, do all those other things that are not necessarily
54:37
financial speculation?
54:39
And I mean, I think I hope
54:42
that this bear market doesn't last too long because more and more people are being you know, have getting drained from from where three spades from from that but
54:56
I think that
54:58
for someone that is in this
55:00
Space
55:02
if they truly believe on the on the
55:06
on the merits of this technology it's not you know it's not a DVD bear market that is going to make them
55:15
you know go away so or question their faith let's say but again the world probably crazy for believing this stuff and
Dee 55:31
thank you so much for finishing this episode designed out to learn more about us follow us on Twitter and our website designer dashed out that XYZ till next time
Apple Vision Pro! What does it mean for the future of Web3?